What's on Your Bookshelf?
“What’s On Your Bookshelf” is a personal and professional growth podcast exploring the intersections of passion, potential, and purpose - featuring multi-certified coach and leadership development consultant Denise R. Russo alongside Andy Hughes, Scott Miller, and Samantha Powell.
What's on Your Bookshelf?
85 - The Happiness Project - July
What if your next purchase could genuinely make you happier? This episode of our podcast takes you on a thrilling exploration of how money intersects with happiness, as inspired by Chapter 7 of "The Happiness Project" by Gretchen Rubin. We break down Rubin's July resolutions, such as indulging in modest splurges and buying needful things, offering practical tips to assess how money can enhance your life. Learn from personal anecdotes that highlight the joy found in meaningful workplace relationships and simple, inexpensive pleasures like hiking and museum visits.
Have you ever wondered how to create a budget tailored to your personal happiness? We delve into the idea of a financial "box" to help you define your financial needs and desires. By understanding what truly brings you joy—whether it's a vacation, a weekly fancy coffee, or quality pens—you can make informed spending decisions that reduce stress and enhance happiness. We also discuss how to strike a balance between short-term pleasures and long-term goals, aligning your spending with your personal values and aspirations.
Imagine impressing your family with a homemade version of their favorite treat, or finding joy in collecting sentimental items like city-specific coffee cups. Through relatable stories, we explore how investing in experiences rather than things can bring lasting happiness. Plus, we share techniques for transforming your relationship with money through decluttering, inspired by Marie Kondo's principles. Learn how eliminating unnecessary expenses and clutter can create space for joy and peace in your life, ultimately shifting your mindset from scarcity to abundance. Join us for an enlightening discussion that promises to transform how you think about money and happiness.
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Welcome to what's on your Bookshelf with your hosts Denise Russo and Samantha Powell. Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of what's on your Bookshelf. This is a life and leadership podcast where we are exploring and deep diving into the pages of books that are on our bookshelves. My name is Denise Russo, and the exploration continues with my friend, sam Powell, and we are in a book called the Happiness Project by Gretchen Rubin. Today, we're going to be discussing chapter number seven, which is for the month of July, which is all about money, which is super interesting, since we've been teaching you for the last several months and weeks and throughout the series that money can't buy you happiness. So, sam, I'm looking forward to exploring this together with you today. How are you doing?
Speaker 2:I'm doing well. Yeah, this was an interesting one because it, you know, money is such a like controversial I don't know if that's really the right word but just such a debated topic when it comes to happiness and she says it right from the beginning the relationship between money and happiness was one of the most interesting, most complicated and most sensitive questions in my study of happiness. People, including the experts, seem very confused. People, including the experts, seem very confused, and I think that there's, you know, there's some truth in that and how people feel about this, because there's the, you know, the old adage of money doesn't buy happiness, but there is something to the fact of if you don't have enough money to survive, then you are.
Speaker 2:You know it contributes to your unhappiness very significantly, right? So there is this like you can't ignore the topic when it comes to happiness entirely, but you also can't put all your eggs in the basket of once I have this much money, or once you know we get to this point, then I'll be happy, or the more I have, the more happiness I get to. And we explored that in the how of happiness, right, that like it's not, it's not about that, right? There's like this kind of minimum threshold you got to meet of, like my needs are met. It's not. Money is not a stressor for me, right? So it's not contributing to my unhappiness, to my unhappiness. But there's also like a higher end of that where it's like, once you've got kind of enough and you know, plus a little more, having more doesn't really help you, it doesn't, it stops contributing to happiness.
Speaker 2:So it's like there's this goldilocks zone of just right in the money space yeah but it's interesting to me that she's taking like right, this is a project, this is hey. Every month she's doing things with a topic to you know their resolutions, and so for her it's buy some happiness is the resolution and this is her. Four things were indulge in a modest splurge, buy needful things, spend out and give something up. So she does a few things throughout this month that she continues as the year goes on, to that she's saying like does this contribute to my happiness? Does this move the lever in some spaces? And uh, it's. It's interesting listening to her. You know it's our reading about her telling this story and, um, and the effects that it's having positive, negative.
Speaker 1:You know that kind of a thing I think that when she started out by talking about this person named gertrude stein I'm not sure who gertrude really is, but gertrude said that everyone has to make up their mind if money is money or money isn't money, and sooner or later they always do decide that money is money, and so it was kind of a confusing sentence, but what it?
Speaker 1:sort of said to me was what is it that you need the exchange for? And is money the thing you need to exchange for the thing that you want? And I can say definitively, for example, for me, the last corporate job I had was a role that I made the most money I had made up to that point in my career, but it was not the thing that was bringing me happiness. The thing in that role that brought me the happiness was the team of the people that I think I said last week. I got a chance to build the team. The happiness came from the relationships. In fact, I think back to, would I have still done that if it was for less money, if the money wasn't the driver? And I could say for sure, yes. And I recall talking to a client of mine recently who also left a role where the client, this person, was making the most money they had made in their career up to that point. But what they were looking for now, as their role had been eliminated and they were looking for like chapter two of what's going to happen next for them, the person said you know what? I think I would be happy and they use the word happy I think I would be happy if I just had a part-time job where I could make enough money to pay for my basic things, have a little bit of extra to spend and capture back some of my time.
Speaker 1:And this particular person said they liked to travel and they liked to go do different things that were outside of their home, like going on hikes or going to museums and stuff like that. And so we started talking in the coaching session around things like okay, are the things you enjoy doing, like going on a hike or going to a museum or traveling? Do those things all have to cost exorbitant money? Like, do you have to go to a five-star resort to travel and have fun, or could you go to a place where you know it's a little bit less than what you may have been accustomed to spending? Or could you go and find out some other things? And what she found through this journey was my gosh. I went to the library and I found out and this is my client telling me she's like I found out you can get a free pass to go to museums. Or I found out that if you do this with this one credit card, you can get points on your travel that you can use for other stuff.
Speaker 1:So this person's been with me as a client for a while now, and so I've seen it sort of unfold and evolve and, sure enough, over the course of over about a year's time now, the person did not go back to take that same high paying type of a job. They did take a role that was less money than they were making before by almost more than half, but they were happier, more peaceful, healthier, lost weight, had better quality relationships, had a zest for life and just said I'm playing out happier. And guess what they still were doing Traveling, going to museums, going on hikes, enjoying friendships, having more time actually to do those things because they weren't stuck on somebody else's calendar. And so I think that when you're thinking about this section, about indulging, for example, on a modest splurge, you'd have to define what does modest mean for you and what is that splurge like and why do you want it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, definitely, and I think that that comes like right. What you're describing is if, if you can get really clear on what type of life you want, what makes you happy, what are the activities you enjoy, what are the things you want in life, then you can box in all of that together. Costs me this much, and so if I can just make enough, I know I can do all the things that make me happy enough. I know I can do all the things that make me happy, right. So I think that money, when we think about it, is something that you've got to put your own box around like right, like started talking about. Like, when you don't have enough, you're kind of in the unhappiness range. But there's also like, once you get to a certain point, more doesn't necessarily contribute to anything.
Speaker 1:And if anything.
Speaker 2:it can kind of keep you on this like hedonic step ladder of like I have to have more and more and more and more and more, because you get used to whatever it is and so more doesn't sit. So, like if you can box this in for yourself and say this is how much I need to just survive, these are the things I'd want to do. So then how do we match that? And how do we meet that? Then you can approach money, I think, much differently and from a happiness lens. What does that look like? And so then when you go to say, well, I would like to have a splurge, everyone's not right. I want to treat myself, I want to do whatever. I mean, she talked about things like buying fancy ballpoint pens, like spending a $2 on a pen versus using the free ones from the doctor's offices, which actually those are the ones I prefer to use. But it's, it's that kind of stuff. It's qualifying what a splurge is for you and what that looks like.
Speaker 2:And you know, I was talking to a client who was like as long as I've got, you know, enough money for like a big vacation a year, that's what I like to do. That makes me happy. It gives me something to look forward to. I enjoy traveling a lot and I want to be able to do that. Just once a year is good. I don't want to be gone all the time. I want to spend time with my kids and my grandkids and that's my everyday life. But I know I want that.
Speaker 2:So my budget and my thought process for what I'm looking for in a job now has to have that factored into it, and I think that, like when you can get clear on what that looks like, when you create your range of this, is about how much I need. There's peace in that. You can kind of let it go and then it can start. Money can start to contribute to your happiness, because then it is one of the things I want to do is I want to be able to get a coffee once a week, a fancy coffee once a week. Right, that makes me, that makes me happy, that gives me that little boost, that little exciting thing. I want to be able to buy the fancy pens, the two dollar pens versus the five cent pens. You know things like that, and so I think that that's again, you got to get in touch with yourself and what you like and what you enjoy and what you want in life.
Speaker 1:And do the things that bring you happiness, but think about the consequence, if it's a short-term happiness or long-term. So you made the comment about going and splurging on a coffee and I was reading something not long ago that was saying let's say that you do go to a name brand coffee place with very overpriced, filled with ice cups full of coffee and that adds up. So let's say that that adds up to. Let's say you go enough for $20 a week over a period of 50 weeks. And now you're talking about did you just spend $1,000 on coffee that you would have rather maybe invested in? I'm just don't know. Maybe that vacation that you're talking about? Okay, if you want the vacation, do you also want the coffee? Like, if you have to make an exchange for that money, could you have the coffee at your house? Or if you did that like, for example, I tried to make Vincent like a, like some sort of equivalent of, like a homemade frappuccino the other day, because he really wanted to go to get the overpriced one.
Speaker 1:So I was like oh, you're never gonna believe what I found at Aldi's and I'm gonna make you this and it's gonna be delicious. He he's like yeah, okay, whatever, mom, yeah, right. So I made it for him and his attitude before I gave it to him was this isn't going to be the same. And I told you I wanted to go there. Well, I just so happened to have a leftover cup from the overpriced place, probably because my parents, I think, even wash paper plates like they grew up in a generation where you reuse the tinfoil.
Speaker 1:Yes, I had this leftover cup so I tried to make it totally like the real thing for my son and I was watching him because I'm like I know what he's gonna do. He's gonna say, oh, this isn't good, it's not, it's not anything like it. But I put it in the same exact cup he would have gotten. And I was watching him and he couldn't help but to laugh because he actually liked it. And so I said to him Vincent, guess how much this package of three of these things in the package cost less than one of the one that you would have had if we went to the other place. So, sure enough, the next day he says hey, can you make me that drink from yesterday? And, by the way, I'm not saying I like it, but I just know you're not going to take me to the other place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there's something to that right Like, um, that was one of the things I invested. I worked as a barista in college. I love coffee, love experimenting with drinks, like it's a fun thing for me, it brings me happiness and I I do just like that, holding a drink, taking a sip, doing whatever. But I also do not like spending money like I just hate it. So one of the things I invested in was, um, a coffee maker that's got like a frother and stuff with it. So now I can just make things myself and there's joy in the process of that.
Speaker 2:And do I go to the coffee you know the chain coffee stores and get things? Sure, because there's something that they like that I just can't quite recreate and it's fun to like let somebody else make it for me sometimes, right, but on a day to day thing, like I enjoy that process, that experience. So that was one of the things going from how happiness is. If you're going to spend money on something, spend it on experiences, right, send it on things that you really are going to enjoy. She said I think it was a you know, if you were to win a Jack, if you were to win the lottery, what you should do is take that money and, instead of going and buying yourself the super fancy car that then you get used to and write the hedonic adaptation, adaptation comes in and it's like it's after a while it's not fancy anymore to you. It's what are the little things, what are the little experiences you can insert in your life that do it right.
Speaker 2:So like, if you're going to buy the car, don't buy the car because you want the fancy car. Buy the car because you like to go on drives every weekend or every time the weather's over a certain temperature, that I put the top down and I go out or I roll the windows down and I drive some back roads, or whatever it's. Think about, like you're saying, what is going to make you short-term, long-term happy. Short-term is owning the thing buying the tv whereas long term is we bought a fancy tv and the background lights so that we can have family movie night every other week, right? So it's really coupling it with the experience. And that was her. I mean, that was her pen story. It was she's a writer. How much better did it make her feel? Writing with the pen she really likes, yeah, you know, rather than the, you know, rather than the free ones, and it's it's inserting that everyday joy by spending a little bit of money and spending it smart and spending in a way that really works for you.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you about a little and a modest splurge that I have, which probably doesn't feel so modest when I'm in the moment. So I go to the fancy coffee places, but I go to specifically buy the cups that they have, that say, the city that you're in, and so I collect the cups and I talked about that. I do the same thing.
Speaker 2:We bonded over that one day.
Speaker 1:Here's what's so special about it. Last week we were talking about friendships, I think, and you came to our retreat in Florida and you brought me a cup from your town. So what's so special about this is now, when I get that cup and it says Pittsburgh on it, I think of you every time I'm drinking coffee in my house with my inexpensive Well, I do buy really good beans because I am kind of a coffee snob too, but I'll buy good beans and it's still less expensive than having somebody else brew them for me. But when I'm using that cup and I'm looking at it, I think of you. And so I remember a couple weeks ago, vincent and I were going to be able to have a chance to have him meet this friend of mine that lives in another country. And so the friend I met at a conference I mean, we talked about this too last week probably I meet people in strange places and become friends with them, but this, this guy came to Florida with his family to go to Disney World and told me he was going to be there and could we meet up for coffee. So I had only met him in person twice before, but I was so excited to be able to meet his wife and kids and have them meet Vincent, because through our conversations we both knew about each other's families, and so to be able to bring that together in that extended way is so cool. Like I can't wait to meet Dan Austin and Princess P one day. I can't wait. And you've already met my family, so you got a chance to meet them.
Speaker 1:But anyways, long story short, so we ended up going to a Starbucks to meet up and we're getting in the line, and so I had my friend go in front of me because I intended that I was going to pay, and so he didn't know that I also had grabbed one of the cups that says Florida on it because we were in Florida. And so we get't know that I also had grabbed one of the cups that says Florida on it because we were in Florida. And so we get to the line and I have it put in the bag and I said oh hey, I got your coffee, no problem. He's like oh man, you didn't have to do that. And so I handed him this bag and he said to me oh my gosh, I'm going to get in so much trouble. And he laughed and I said what do you mean? And he said I collect these cups. And he said but my wife said you're not allowed to come home with any more of these cups, and so you have to now go tell her that you bought the cup for me. So we made this whole funny joke about it.
Speaker 1:So the wife was in another store because we were in this mall.
Speaker 1:So I went over to the wife and, by the way, these friends of mine don't speak English and I don't speak Spanish, so we have really disjointed ways of conversating, which is a whole nother story for a different episode. But so I'm trying to tell the wife in my broken Spanish that I bought the cup. And she's telling me in her broken English yeah, sure you did, because I know my husband and I told him not to buy the cup and he's not supposed to come home with the cups. So we were laughing and laughing and laughing, and so even after that he ended up going home all the way back to his country and in the same kind of time frame I took a picture of my coffee cupboard, where my cups are, and so did he, and we exchanged the pictures, and so it's become kind of this funny, this funny joke. But the point is now, every time I drink out of my cup, that has the experience from where I was with him, or the cup that you gave me, from that experience with you.
Speaker 2:It has nothing to do with the coffee, to your point exactly, it's a right and it's and it harkens back to like some of the other things, right, like her building a treasure trove of memories, or like, as we learn in the how of happiness, like that reminiscing does bring happiness, and so when you tie spending of money to these experiences, that then you can carry forward, right and reuse, like that's where the happiness really comes in. It's not the fact that like, oh, I just acquired, just acquired things, it's acquiring them for you know, for something. And she, she talks about that too in like this chapter about buying needful things, and she goes through the concept of underbuying and overbuying. I was like, oh my gosh, am I such an underbuyer? It's not funny, right, like I'll wear t-shirts till they have holes in them, and it's like, really like, and it's just because I don't, like, I just am not a shopper, right, it's just, it's just not my thing.
Speaker 2:But you know, she talked about, you know, running out of toilet paper and like how, you know she switched her thought process to I will always have an by, you know, underbuying or not contributing to her happiness. And other people are like overbuyers. Right now I have all this stuff and I need to get rid of it and like right, it just starts to stress you out in that space. So it's really kind of sitting in that needful section. I thought that was an interesting thing and I giggled about the under the under buying because I was like I just threw out a pair of shorts from high school oh, you've talked about those shorts on.
Speaker 1:Never gonna wear them again, right?
Speaker 2:like it's that kind of a thing of like, but because I had them, then I wouldn't go buy another pair of like regular shorts I have shorts, right, but you know it's thinking about money and happiness in those spaces too, of like sitting in that again kind of like Goldilocks range of just right, right, like I'm not under buying but I'm not over buying. I'm kind of buying the needful things, the things that I need, and making sure that they're there right, so that it doesn't contribute to me feeling stressed and anxious and, oh gosh, you know, do whatever in this space.
Speaker 1:She talks about your Goldilocks thing and being just right in the next part with the spend out, which is, she said, the opposite of the underbuying which you experience is that she tends to cling to things, to stuff and to ideas. And she'll do things like she said. She reuses razor blades until they're dull and keeps her toothbrushes till they're yellow and frayed, so she uses things until they're totally overused. But she wanted to stop hoarding. But this is the part I circled. She said I want to stop hoarding but to trust in abundance so I could use things up, give things away, throw things away, use things up, give things away, throw things away. And not only that, I wanted to stop worrying about keeping score and profit and loss and I wanted to spend out. And it got me to think about my mom. So my dad is like the king of garage sales and he'll say he hates to do them. But I think he secretly loves to do them. But I think the reason he hates to do them is my mom will put stuff out on the table and somebody will come up and say, well, how much do you want for the whatever? And my mom will say, well, I'd like to have I don't know $5. And then the person will be like, well, I'll give you four. And then my mom will go into a half hour story about how the thing cost her $30 and what she did with it, and then she just cannot take the $4. And then the person will walk away and my dad will be so mad because he'll be like you just lost $4 on something you were going to give away to Goodwill at the end of the day. But she's like Nope, I want to keep it. And so she'll end up. Then it'll sit in the garage till till the next garage sale.
Speaker 1:Now my father opposite. So I had all these like really expensive backpacks that maybe my kids used one time. So my dad says to this lady that comes up go grab one of those garbage bags stuff it crammed, jammed, as full as you possibly can, do it like a Santa Claus bag and give me five bucks. And so I'm sitting there having a panic attack, like do you understand that one of those backpacks alone probably cost me $70? He's like whatever, you shouldn't have put it in the sale if you didn't want me to give it away. So there's like this contrast of the under and the over. But she talks about being efficient and to be able to get what you want when you need it, but I don't know. She sort of also said that this is a painful lesson in giving up when something needs to go away, probably like your shorts, because you've talked about those shorts before. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I, I I highlighted the exact same thing you just quoted and I love the. You know like I wanted to trust in abundance, uh, you know, so that she could use things up, give things away, throw things out, you know, and, and because when I read the thing, when I read that her spend out, I didn't understand what that meant, but it was like it's a releasing right, it's a I can get rid of this, things will come back around. I can trust in abundance that like, because I spend out, because I let go, because I finally get rid of the thing, then I can do, you know, then I can move into, just like a happier place. You know, in this relationship with money. It's interesting. It reminds me of one of the coaching trainings that I went through and you know you and I are both multi-certified in lots of different places, but one of the certifications I did it was a general life coaching certification and you know we touched on all the areas, but one of the exercises they made you go through as a coach was really working on your relationship with money yourself, because in order to coach someone else, you really had to, like, you really have to process a lot of your own stuff.
Speaker 2:I think therapists probably do the exact same thing, right, like, in order to guide people, you have to be trained in how to do that, but you also have to work on your own stuff.
Speaker 2:Like part of the training of a therapist is that you have to have a therapist yourself, because as you're learning how to do things, you come across your own issues and need somebody to help you guide that, and so you know.
Speaker 2:Same thing with, like coaching, because it's all based in it's on the positive side of psychology, but you have to work on your relationship with money if you're ever going to guide somebody in like general life stuff, because money is a practicality, it's part of life, you know.
Speaker 2:And so this is what made me think of that is that like the training that I went through was really talking about like you do have to lean into the trust of abundance, that like you can't sit in a scarcity mindset all of the time with money, or else you're always going to be limiting yourself. You're always going to be, you know, sitting in that space, and I think that's really what she's exploring here is getting out of scarcity and into abundance, and that gives you the space to really be able to spend out, as she's calling it. But it's, you know, it's really about being able to let go and release and, you know, buy the go, buy the things you need and get rid of the things you don't need so that you can, you know, find that freedom and that space of the things you don't need, so that you can find that freedom and that space of happiness.
Speaker 1:It's about giving something up. And so my pastor was teaching this lesson one time where he was saying if you imagine that your hands are closed, meaning you're holding on to something so tight relationships, money, things, whatever the thing is right it's you're holding onto something so tight relationships, money, things, whatever the thing is right it's you're holding it, you're holding it and your hand is closed and that means that only whatever can fit in your hand is all that can fit in there. And so he gave this analogy to say imagine that you take your fists that are closed and you open them up. Yes, well, some of those things maybe fall off or fly away or whatever. But he said but until you open your hands up, you cannot receive anything else, because if your hands are closed, they're closed to anything new.
Speaker 1:So if you want a new job or a different relationship or the new car you were kind of talking about, or maybe you want to just have less stuff, because it's it's all about getting rid of something to cleanse something in your mind and your thinking, in your heart, and the stuff could be a thought, the stuff could be a thing. Until you open your hands up to it, you don't know what needs to fall away in order to either have something come in. But it doesn't mean that your bucket has to always be full. Why do we always think that we have to have every little nook and cranny filled up just because there's space? Maybe you need to have space so that your life has some freedom and some peace.
Speaker 2:And the only way you do that is, you know, is letting things go. Is, you know, is is the spending out? Right, you have to put things out there so that you have the space for the new things that you need to make room for. Right? And her, I liked her, you know, when she her concept of giving something up, as she was thinking about, like, categories of spend. For her it was she buys a whole bunch of office supplies for her office, right, like, who doesn't love to run into a Staples or an office Depot or or whatever? Um, and she was like I just need to stop, I don't need anything else in here. I don't like, right, like, just cut that entire category of spend.
Speaker 2:And she went on her blog and asked other people like what categories of things have you cut out to really make yourself happy? And I thought that was an interesting exercise to kind of go through is, like, what is maybe a category of something that you need to cut or, you know, change and like, and like we were talking about coffee, right, like, maybe you do go through the drive-through every day and it's like, well, how could you cut that? Would it make you happier if you cut that category of spend, yeah, and we've all got something somewhere. And that was. I just thought it was an interesting exercise that she you know that she went through and found some space for happiness and, like this, releasing space for happiness and, like this, releasing.
Speaker 1:Well then, you know I have to end this episode by saying that one of my favorite books that I keep teasing about that we're going to do eventually is the life changing magic of tidying up by Marie Kondo. So, Scott, let's make sure we put the link for that in the in the show notes, because her whole concept is about giving up something in order to create space in your joy. And if your joy is equal to something about your happiness, that sometimes it's the things around us that take away our happiness, Like I know for me for sure, I'll think to myself on a Saturday, I really want to go to the beach, but I'm looking at five loads of laundry. Why do I have five loads of laundry? And so if you could remove some things to allow for the other things to be open to you, then maybe that will bring you one step closer to whatever it is that you consider to be joy and happiness. And for some things, for some people listening, maybe that is removing people, Maybe it is removing items, Maybe it's removing beliefs, Maybe it's removing some thoughts, but until you remove it, you can't get past it.
Speaker 1:And so next week we're going to be talking about eternity actually. So you know these things, about things and money and belongings they don't go with you. And so next week we're going to be talking about contemplating the heavens and what that might mean. But I hope you'll join us, regardless of whatever your thoughts and beliefs are about what happens to you when you're no longer here. I think we actually talked about that as well in Solve for Happy and we talked about it in the John Wooden book. So come back next week where we talk about Contemplating the Heavens. It's chapter number eight, August Sam. Anything else to close us out for today.
Speaker 2:You know, there was one thing towards the end of this chapter, as she was closing it out, that reminded me of Atomic Habits, and she said it was a quote by Samuel Butler, and part of it says it does not matter how high up or how low down you are, it depends not on this but on the direction of which you are trending.
Speaker 2:And so that just reminded me of you should be far more concerned with your trajectory than your current position. From Atomic Habits and James Clear and so when you're thinking about happiness and you're thinking about happiness and we're thinking about money and all these things we've been talking about, is there's still that reminder there of you should be concerned with where you're headed. Right, you should be concerned with that trajectory of your happiness and what does the future look like? Far more than where you really are today. Right, things go up and down and wax and wane and all that sort of good stuff, and as we look forward to contemplate eternity here in the next chapter, you know, don't lose sight of that. I think that that's important, especially as we're, you know, pathway through this exploration and this project that she's been going through.
Speaker 1:What a great way to end this. Well, thanks again for tying us up so well. And, friends, if you've enjoyed this, let us know if you've gotten value from it. What are the things you're getting value from? Scott has ways for you to reach us in our show notes, and my name is Denise Russo. I love being here every week with my friend, sam Powell. Thank you for joining us today, friends, for listening to this episode of what's On your Bookshelf.