What's on Your Bookshelf?
“What’s On Your Bookshelf” is a personal and professional growth podcast exploring the intersections of passion, potential, and purpose - featuring multi-certified coach and leadership development consultant Denise R. Russo alongside Sam Powell, Zach Elliott, Tom Schweizer, Dennis LaRue, and Michelle King.
What's on Your Bookshelf?
111 - The Obstacle is the Way: Steady your Nerves
Denise and Sam explore the concept of perception in Ryan Holiday's "The Obstacle is the Way," focusing on how steadying our nerves and controlling our emotions can transform obstacles into opportunities.
• Perception shapes our response to challenges and determines whether obstacles block us or become the way forward
• Public speaking anxiety as a common example of needing to steady your nerves in high-pressure situations
• The importance of being "the adult in the room" when facing workplace or personal challenges
• Controlling emotions doesn't mean suppressing them—it means creating space between feeling and response
• NASA astronauts' training demonstrates how remaining calm allows for better decision-making in crisis
• When emotions escalate, ask "what am I choosing not to see right now?"
• Emotional intelligence means recognizing when values are violated without letting reactions control you
• The obstacle is only insurmountable if your perception makes it so
Join us next week as we continue our journey through "The Obstacle is the Way," exploring objectivity and how to alter your perspective when moving through different obstacles.
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Welcome to what's on your Bookshelf, a life and leadership podcast where we live out loud the pages of the books that are on our shelves, with your host, denise Russo, and Sam Powell. Hi everyone, Welcome back to another episode of what's on your Bookshelf. This is a life and leadership podcast where we are living out loud the pages of the books that are on our bookshelves. My name is Denise Russo, I'm here with my co-host, sam Powell, and we are at the beginnings of our newest book for 2025, called the Obstacle is the Way by Ryan Holiday. Sam, how are you doing today? I'm good.
Speaker 2:I faced a lot of obstacles in the last two days here, so it's you know this book is coming at a good time for me, ditto ditto.
Speaker 1:I hope it is for our listeners as well. So just a reminder, if you're just jumping in with us we take these books that are on our bookshelves, we read them and then we come together and have this discussion and I like how you talked about it last week, sam, where you were saying something like it feels like we're just having sort of coffee with each other, but sharing our private stories with people listening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally. That's what it feels like to me. It feels like you're sitting in on one of our little coffee box, like our private little book club here, yes, our private little book club.
Speaker 1:We truly are living out loud these pages, and so where we are in the book is we've done the intro and the preface, but now we're in part one of the book, which is called Perception. So the way this book is lined up is it starts with perception, like what we believe and think about things. Then it moves into action, so that's the activities that come from our thoughts and our beliefs, and then it goes into more of the long-term sustainability, or what the book calls will. So there's a lot of little chapters within each of the sections. In fact, they're only a couple pages long. So Sam and I decided that for today we're going to start with where we had left off before and see how far we go in our 30 minutes together. So, sam, tell me a little bit around what you thought when you got to this chapter. That's called Steady your Nerves. That's called steady your nerves.
Speaker 2:It's funny, the thing that kept going through my mind is public speaking for me, because that's one of the things that, like, I've done a lot of, especially as like a leader and a manager and things like that. And if I ever have to like do a bigger speech at this point, like, I feel that like those nerves go through my body a lot and so it's one of the places where I do have to really work to study them. But it's something that, like, in certain instances I don't have to do that anymore. Right, like if I were to talk to like my team or something like that, like wouldn't need to do that sitting here talking with you, I don't need to do that. But if I were to have to like stand up on a stage, I enjoy it a lot. I really like talking, obviously, and things like that, but it but there are still like nerves that come along with that, and so, like when I was, the very first thing is what I'm thinking about? Studying your nerves is that experience for me, which I like?
Speaker 2:Public speaking is what the number one fear. I think it's above dying for, like most people in the world. So it's. I think it's probably a common one for everybody. But I was thinking about it in that kind of an emotional state of like something triggers me, something's about to happen, something is happening and it's like my heart starts to race. It's all those feelings and to really again this is all about perception right To get to a place where I can get to the right perception of a situation. I got to bring that emotion like that, that nervous, like you know that anxiety hormone I don't know what they are, but you know like that adrenaline I guess, going through you to like pull that, pull that down.
Speaker 1:So as we started this, that's like the frame of mind I started reading this section with well, he starts out this chapter interestingly tying together what we came from before when we were talking about Rockefeller and being cool-headed, and there was a quote from Theodore Roosevelt that said what such a man needs is not courage, but nerve control and cool-headedness. This he can get only by practice, and so I like how you were describing that your perception was about being on a stage. It's funny because when I was reading it I had a different perception, because on the second page of this chapter it really talked about how stuff happens unintentionally in life and it seems sometimes, maybe, like people are out there looking to get you, to intimidate you, to rattle you, to pressure you. I was thinking about some leaders I had that were like that in my past, and so it got me to thinking about the saying when you, when you think to someone like wow, you've got a lot of nerve.
Speaker 1:But you've got a lot of nerve means that that person maybe is sort of steady in their nerve, but in a not positive way yeah, they're forcing other.
Speaker 2:I've never really thought about that same, but it's almost like when you say that, you're almost saying like you're somebody who makes other people feel nervous like it's like you're, it's like you're the I don't know like you're the. I don't know like you're the aggressor of the nervousness. Yeah, you're the obstacle in the way.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. That's interesting, yeah, yeah. So I thought to myself about there's like so much going on in the media and in our environment right now where I feel like there's probably a lot of people in ivory towers and corporate businesses and in the government that are looking at each other and pointing fingers and saying you've got a lot of nerve and those things are providing obstacles that are totally in the way of progress. And so one of the things that I took out of this part of the chapter is it says there will be things in life that catch us off guard. But when we aim, high pressure and stress obligingly come along for the ride.
Speaker 1:Stuff happens that catches us off guard, threatens and scares us. This risk of being overwhelmed is always there, and so I really started thinking around how do you steady your nerves? And it's really around the idea of resilience and about this concept of if you start with what you are feeling and what you are thinking, then you can investigate what you are doing or not doing and change the things that you have or don't have in your life. So it says that basically, they weren't talking about talent, sam, they were talking around characteristics of things like grace and poise and how that was the way to steady your nerves, maybe when you're confronted with a person or a situation that unnerves you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I I love he says in here you know, in these situations where you know things start to escalate, talent isn't the most sought after characteristic, like you said, grace and poise are. They're the different situations where one your boss handled it really well, the other one the teachers handled it really poorly. And I think about that, the situations I've been in where, like the, this feels like the sky is falling and like chicken littles going crazy, and you know, things like that, and it's the people who can be that calm, steady force. It doesn't matter how talented the person is, it doesn't matter how much, like I respect them or whatever. If that person can't stay steady in that moment, then there, then there's no benefit happening to the people around them, especially like as you think about leaders and things like that. But I think about it for our own lives. And if I'm thinking about like self leadership, like I, if I can't bring myself down into this steady state, then I can't. There's nowhere to function from there. Right, I'm just going to make the situation, you know, worse, and things like that.
Speaker 2:And I like that he goes on to say right, it's that, you know. Like he says it's things like thinking, thinking I don't agree to be intimidated. I resist the temptation to, you know, declare this a failure or a catastrophe or whatever. Right it's that. But I like that. He goes on to say it's also like the next level is a matter of acceptance. Well, I guess it's on me then. I don't have the luxury of being shaken up about this or playing the close calls in my head. I'm too busy and too many people are counting on me and I can think of as a leader and as a parent. A lot of times where that's that has been almost word for word dialect through my head of like it's like right, I looked to the left, it looks like there's, it's me, like I'm, I'm the one. I I'll never forget this.
Speaker 2:Like instance, in early in my manager career, me and another girl who were about the same age, same job experience.
Speaker 2:She and I were on some call, like it was some escalation, craziness or whatever, and she called me immediately after we hung up the call with everybody on it, and then she called me directly and I was like oh gosh, it's going to be one of those let's complain to each other moments, like let's vent a little bit. And she's like Sam, you know sometimes when you're looking for the adult in the room and you look around and you realize you are the adult in the room. That's all I can think about. This is like you really want to control the narrative, control the story, really like again, like this is about per your purse, your perspective of what the events that are happening around you, if you really want to get into the driver's seat of that, you got to realize you're the adult the room. You got to realize, like I guess it's on me then, like I'm the one that's gonna have to take the deep breath and then lead everybody else through it.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like that quote. If it's to be, it's up to me. And so when I think back to the idea of what it's talking around control here it was sort of looking at the idea of what is that leader like the person you're talking about, that wants control but has lost control and is defiant, like we're seeing it play out in front of us in the media right now that defiance and control is not steady and it is a lot of nerve, but it is a power play. And so the book talks around how you have the opportunity in your own self-development to have the obstacle be the way that there's something he calls the counter move. It's an escape or a way through. It's not easy to do, but when you can look at your perception and be more self aware of it, then you have more opportunity to move through it.
Speaker 1:And it seems like that's a good segue into the next little short chapter, which is that the first way that you do that to study your nerves is to control your emotions. That you do that to steady your nerves is to control your emotions. So to the point of your conversation with your former coworker, it's easy to jump on the person that has maybe jumped first. But if you can control your emotions and it's hard because, right, you bring sometimes your work problems to home I think rarely do people bring their home problems to work, but sometimes, if it's bad enough, it bleeds through. And I often tell people there's no such thing as work life balance. You have a life. Work is part of it. You need to balance your life and that, in this case, if you have to balance your emotions it's hard to do when there's something on a polar end of something, whether it's a negative or whether it's a positive charge, and it takes practice, yeah, and I he calls it the very beginning of this controlling your emotion section is the art of not panicking.
Speaker 2:Like when people panic they make mistakes, which I've been there, done that, right, and this is really you know. He says that panic has to be trained out and it doesn't go easily. And I think that, as you think about the emotions, and I think this is where, like for me, being a parent, especially as, like my kids get older and it's like why I have a friend that always used to say bigger kids, bigger problems, and like also bigger kids, bigger emotions, right, and so as, like I watch my son grow and things like that, there are times where he triggers me and my emotions really big, and so I have to be the one who takes control. Right, I'm the leader in this situation, I'm the parent, and so I have to really get in control of my emotions. I have to, like the very quote at the very beginning of this chapter is would you have a great empire? Rule over yourself?
Speaker 2:And I think about that in the context of like leading a family. Like, if I want a great family, I've got to lead myself. I have to control that initial reaction that I just cannot win and, like my kids know me well, right, he's going to find the thing that he knows triggers me. Right, because he's looking to get that rise out of me. We all do that, you know when we're feeling those things, and so I've got to be the person who controls what I'm feeling in order to really, like, lead us all through this.
Speaker 1:It's interesting to think around human behavior, that there's people that lean more on the side of feeling and more than other people that lean more on the side of processing, and so what I was taking away with what you just said is that if you want to control your emotions, and especially in the case of being a parent, you need to be harnessed and equipped with information, because if you have information even at work, if you have information even at work, if you have more information at work, you're going to be able to control your emotions if something becomes emotionally charged, and so it gives this example in the book around some stuff going on with NASA and some older stories with John Glenn and Buzz Aldrin, but you could even look at something that recently came out in the news where there was this kind of like fight between what was going on up in the International Space Stations and trying to get some astronauts home that have been stranded there for a while, and the argument was emotionally charged, without fact, and the astronauts had the education, the information and the facts to quote unquote fight back.
Speaker 1:They steadied their nerves and were being were able to use logic and reason to explain what really happened, that they weren't um stuck up in space like what was that uh matt damon movie about mars where he was having to, like, eat potatoes in his. So this is like real life, that these guys had information, education, awareness and facts. They were able to study their nerves and their control, their emotions, because they knew what was and wasn't within their control to be able to get them home.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I liked this story about NASA and like, as they were training, you know, for the Apollo missions and things like that, about having a control on your right, like we kind of see this play out in real life here, because you can't afford to panic and I think you have to think of, I think we need to think of, a lot of situations like that. Right, like we don't we don't usually live in life and death situations, right, Like you would if you're an astronaut in the middle of space and you've got to rely on being calm to get you through, to make all the right decisions, to read the information correctly, all that sort of stuff. But I think that, like, if we took a little bit of that and implemented in our lives, I think we'd be a little bit better off. Like, just thinking about, like it is really important that I calm myself down, that I calm myself down, that I bring myself back down to neutral, so that I can, you know, figure out the way forward, figure out what the next step is.
Speaker 2:And you know he has got this thing that says just say to yourself no, thank you, I can't afford to panic. I think that's it Like, like we don't often get to that level of like oh, I can't afford to panic right now. It's like that you would if it was a life or death type of situation. But we kind of need to insert more of that into our lives. I think of like I just can't afford to panic on this. I can't afford to emotionally respond here. I need to take a deep breath. I need to, you know, figure out what's going on.
Speaker 2:Read my body a little bit better, right, like get in touch and then move forward. Right, then take the next step, instead of being like, oh gosh, panic, I need to go, do you know whatever? And I think about like that, even in small things, like people who are struggling with diet, people who struggle with impulse shopping, right, it's like I'm triggered by a feeling and so I'm going to go snack, I'm going to go buy something, I'm going to go do whatever, like that's all the same, it's the smaller end, it's the other end of the scale, but it's the same kind of thing. Like I've got to learn to control my emotions. If I'm going to control the perception of what's going on here. Right, instead of just thinking, oh man, I really, you know, I really need this chocolate bar that's sitting in here.
Speaker 2:Like, I just feel like I need it and that's the perception that I live in. I've got to think. I got to take that minute to be like, actually, I'm just feeling really stressed out because of this thing that just happened and I actually need the chocolate bar. I need to go, like take a deep breath. I need to go walk a lap, I need to go, you know, do something else that actually serves who I want to be and who I want to become.
Speaker 1:Yeah, anxiety does not fix your situation. I think somebody had told me one time that in the Bible it says over 350 times don't be afraid, don't be anxious. Like that said more than anything else in the entire book. And so he talks in this book about another book called the Gift of Fear, and it's a great coaching question. In this part of the book it says when you worry, ask yourself what am I choosing to not see right now? What important things are you missing Because you chose worry over introspection, alertness and wisdom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I love that right, like that's it when we let our emotions rule right and, instead of using them, like our emotions are meant to be, we have them right, like from a biological standpoint, to warn us about dangers, to make us make a change from the current situation. Right, whatever the current situation is, our body doesn't think it's serving us. Either there's a threat or there's something right. We've got to do something and instead of, like, just letting that rule, um, you are missing something like right and like. I love that thought process of like.
Speaker 2:If I give in to anxiety right now, what am I really missing out on right, if I and I, like I think about that again, like with, again with my kids, like you know, as my son grows up, I get really nervous about him going out and doing things, going to play at other people's houses, right, where I'm not the one watching him, I'm not the one responsible for his like, health and safety in that moment, and I struggle with that right Because of things that have gone I've gone on in my own life.
Speaker 2:And so if I give into that and I don't let him go do those experiences like, what am I missing? I'm missing watching him experience those things. I'm missing his joy, his you know experiences in life if I give into those feelings rather than working through them, right, rather than really thinking about okay, how do I, how do I lessen my worry, like, right, what do I do to set up this to be a safe environment so that I can watch him walk away and go, do and experience the life that he needs to experience, which is what I want ultimately, right?
Speaker 1:Right, right, I think in business this is why coaching is so powerful, because it's based in logic to remove the emotion and the fear from a situation. So I can think of just recently there was a really big layoff at a pretty big company where I have some friends that I used to work with in another company many years ago, and there's this one former colleague of mine that every day is posting around their fear of having lost their job, and that does come with a lot of fear and a lot of anxiety. I have friends and you have friends at another place where we worked in another former job, that may every day be going to work feeling those fears and they didn't even lose their job yet, but they're sitting in a space of thinking, well, what if I do today? And they didn't even lose their job yet. But they're sitting in a space of thinking, well, what if I do today? But what if you don't?
Speaker 1:And so with coaching, I think the power of logic helps you to look past the emotional side. Like I lost my job. Okay, that's true, maybe you did get laid off, but now what are you going to do about it? Is it possible that you're never going to have a job again for the rest of your life? Probably not. But if you do nothing, then, yes, you will not.
Speaker 1:So it's about moving you from being where you're paralyzed or stuck today to where you are tomorrow, just like the story you shared last week, or maybe week before, where there was the guy in the middle of the road that used logic Okay, if I go into the woods and I find a stick, I might be able to move this rock, instead of the people that got caught up in the emotion and said, well, why did the king even put it there in the first place? And oh, he's just trying to ruin our lives. The person did something about it and it opened up a way for everyone to be able to move freely. So I like that this talks about that, because I live more on the logical side.
Speaker 2:But I would be lying if I didn't tell you sometimes emotions do get the best of me, especially when it's dealing with people I care about the most, whether professionally or personally, and so from there, the thing that I didn't like about this part in this section, though and I like I highlighted it for myself because it jarred me a little bit is that you you know he's got this line of like we defeat emotion with logic, and I really didn't like.
Speaker 2:I actually wrote like what a guy thing, to say, right, like it, I don't like the perspective of emotions are something to be defeated, that emotions are something negative, and that's the way that sentence is phrased. Comes from that place, right, and I'm sure the author doesn't actually like fully mean that. Right, he's talking about embracing emotions and all the good stuff around it. But like there is still this bias, I think, especially in like I don't know, just in like the patriarchal societies we all grow up in, right, that like emotions are a bad thing, emotions are something to be suppressed, to push away, to push over, and that kind of stuff. And so I don't like that's the only thing I felt like was missing about this is like I do, like I think of myself as somebody who's pretty strong with emotional control, but it's not lack of feeling those emotions. It's that I can control the action that follows it. I have enough space in between a practice, that enough, and like that's not always true, but like that's a practiced thing. But it's not not feeling it Right, it's not defeating the emotion, because I think that that could be the mistake and that would be where I wouldn't want people to like take that the wrong way of like oh, I have to control my emotions, which means I don't feel them, which means I suppress them, which means I push them down, and it's, it's the exact opposite you, the emotions are, they're such a power move If you do it, and maybe this is the whole like, change your perception, change your life. Here we're kind of in this section, that's.
Speaker 2:I think the other big thing for me is, I think about controlling, is it's? It's just controlling what you do with it, right? Your thought process around the emotion, not the emotion itself. You should feel that anger fully, because that anger is teaching you something. It is telling you, right, that there is some, you know, deeply seated belief of yours that's been violated, right, a deeply seated belief of yours that's been violated, right, like I'm only angry, like genuinely angry, when some rule of mine has been violated grossly.
Speaker 2:right, it's usually a value that's been. Like I say we treat everyone, you know, with kindness and fairness and things like that. When somebody doesn't do that, I'm angry and I need to feel that because that anger helps me take action. Right, it's the thing that's telling me you can't just sit here, you have to do something about that, and so, like that's the thing when I think about it is like I think the author like he's on the right track but got a little tiny bit wrong here as he like ends the chapter or this, you know this little section out.
Speaker 1:I think that maybe, if I were to reword it or be the editor, I would say something more like you, defeat the obstacle by elevating your self-awareness and increasing your emotional intelligence.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because if you have a perception of something that isn't true or that isn't plausibly going to destroy your life, like he goes on to say if you're not going to die from this, then is it really that bad kind of a thing. But I love where he ended it after that, because he did kind of pivot into more of the emotional intelligence side by saying, when you're thinking around, the obstacle is what happened to you. Okay, that could be again. Did you get laid off? Did you not get the promotion you wanted? Did your son or daughter lose their sports game? Did you get laid off? Did you not get the promotion you wanted? Did your son or daughter lose their sports game? Did you have an argument with a loved one?
Speaker 1:Whatever the obstacle is, does what happened keep you from acting with justice, generosity, self-control, sanity, prudence, honesty, humility, straightforwardness? So then he basically says, well, if not, then just get back to work and get control of your emotions in your subconscious mind. In your conscious mind, because it is around, looking at what we've talked about today, which is your emotions and your nerves, which will lead us into next week around. How do you act in this more objective kind of a way? So, before we end for today, sam, is there anything that we left out leading into next week?
Speaker 2:I think there's anything we left out, but I think, like if I was encouraging people to think about this is to find those moments in the next week where your nerves get the best of you, where your emotions get escalated, and really just take the second to pause and think about those right and really kind of reframe how those things can be helpful to you, how that can put you into a different perspective. So I think, like some aware, like just taking some time and an exercise in awareness will help you move on, especially as we move into like the objectivity, which is really like removing yourself from from that situation and thinking about it kind of from an outside perspective.
Speaker 1:I really like that. I think that I would add to that for myself. What I want to take action on this week is trying to put myself in the shoes of the other person that might be unnerving me, because maybe I can see something I don't see from my side of the fence. You know, I don't think in work. I think sometimes we get into these arguments at work or these situations or obstacles at work and innately people I don't think are out to just get you and to make things worse and to make your company fail and to make your department struggle. There's just something else there that we need to become more objective about, perhaps, and that's what we'll talk about next week.
Speaker 1:This has again been an awesome conversation, sam. We weren't sure how far we would get today, and I'm glad that we got through these two sections of this part of the book which is around perspective. So next week we're going to talk about objectivity and how to alter your perspective as you're moving through different obstacles. If you're just new to this series, you don't have to have the book to go through this with us, but it sure is helpful. Because these chapters are short. I like to write in my book and make notes in it, because it's helping me truly live out loud these pages, and so we will have some notes for you as to how you can get a copy of the book as well if you're interested in taking a deeper dive. But for this week, my name is Denise Russo and, on behalf of my friend, sam Powell, this has been another episode of what's on your Bookshelf.