What's on Your Bookshelf?
“What’s On Your Bookshelf” is a personal and professional growth podcast exploring the intersections of passion, potential, and purpose - featuring multi-certified coach and leadership development consultant Denise R. Russo alongside Sam Powell, Zach Elliott, Tom Schweizer, Dennis LaRue, and Michelle King.
What's on Your Bookshelf?
123-The Obstacle Is The Way: Part 3-Episode 3; Finding Strength Through Life's Challenges: Edison, Perseverance, and the Path Forward
We explore two powerful concepts from Ryan Holiday's "The Obstacle Is The Way" that can transform how we approach life's challenges: loving everything that happens and cultivating perseverance.
• Thomas Edison's warehouse fire destroyed $23 million worth of inventions, yet he watched with wonder and returned to work the next day
• Shifting from "have to" to "get to" perspective reconnects us with gratitude and excitement
• The story of Olivia, who transformed flood devastation into an organization that's collected over 110,000 pairs of shoes for those in need
• Persistence is an action (hammering at a problem), while perseverance is a matter of will (staying in the game long-term)
• Professional athletes demonstrate perseverance by investing more hours and maintaining focus longer than competitors
• Our greatest obstacles are often self-created through doubt, fear, and hesitation
• When we live out wisdom actively rather than just collecting it, our lives become richer and more meaningful
We'd love to hear from you about ways we could make this experience better! Reach out to us about joining a book club or participating in live events as we continue this journey together.
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Welcome to what's on your Bookshelf, a life and leadership podcast where we live out loud the pages of the books that are on our shelves with your host, denise Russo, and Sam Powell.
Speaker 1:Hello everyone, welcome back. It's another episode of what's on your Bookshelf. This is our life and leadership podcast, where we're living out loud the pages of the books on our bookshelves. There's a book we've taken off of our shelf called the Obstacle is the Way by Ryan Holiday. My name is Denise Russo and my co-host is Sam Powell. Sam, I'm looking forward to talking with you today about loving everything, uh, which I love and, in general, totally agree with.
Speaker 2:So, yes, that, and perseverance is the next thing. So we're gonna love everything and we're gonna persevere as we go. So, uh, I, I like it, and one the love, everything that happens starts with talking about Thomas Edison, which is and which is again like there's I'm learning a lot of history in this book that I didn't know about, but I guess that he had this whole like warehouse that completely burned down with all these inventions in it, warehouse that completely burned down with all these inventions in it. I mean, and like I don't have the highlighted part of oh, he said, um, it would be, uh, it was like a 1 million dollar loss at the time, which in today's dollars, is like 23 million dollar loss because of this fire.
Speaker 2:And edison, through like, uh, oh, hey, like, he like called his family over, was like look at the colors of all the chemical explosions, you'll never see a fire like this ever again. Like, had this, like love of this crazy fire that was burning 23 million dollars worth of stuff and inventions and prototypes that you could never get back. But he did the very next day, right, like, went right back into it, right back at it, and he says Edison would marshal enough energy to make nearly $10 million in revenue that year, which would be 200 plus million today. Right, so he lost $23 million worth of stuff and made 200 million dollars after this fire, but just had this crazy like one. I think, just love of like hey, this thing's happening, like let's enjoy it, it is what it is, but just the love of, I think, the work too, to like get back and get back into it maybe he's the definition of a true mad scientist, because that's gotta be like.
Speaker 1:I mean literally friends. He lost everything. He lost all of his files. There was no computer backup, there was no buddy that had the information.
Speaker 1:It's terrible, so, but ryan holiday says that to do great things we need to be able to endure tragedy and setbacks. And it's in the turning, it's, it's the act of turning what we must do into what we get to do, and I've heard that quote before where, if you just change from a positive intelligence perspective of like I have to go to work today, or you could say, I get to go to work today and the blessing of it is like, I would challenge everyone listening to this episode to think back to what it was like the day you found out you were offered the job that you're in. If you are so lucky to have a job right now, it was probably a super exciting day. You were energized, you were encouraged, you were looking forward to it, you had great vision and plans and you were excited about the person that. You were encouraged, you were looking forward to it, you had great vision and plans and you were excited about the person that you were perceiving was going to be a great manager, and then, for some, that story changes along the way and you lose that, that love that you had that day when you took that job. And sometimes things don't go the way that we want and bitterness comes in sometimes, and I think that that's the hardship of this. Now, some people have this ability to do this thing called Amor Fati, which is the love, everything that happens piece.
Speaker 1:Olivia is a master at this. She takes setbacks and uses them as like comebacks. So when we in 2009, we lost our home in a major flood disaster in Atlanta, and Olivia at the time was very young, she was in second grade, and all she saw was people coming to help us. She didn't see the fact that everything we had worked really hard to have was washed away or sitting in toilet water, literally. And I remember talking with her just about the gratitude that she had for people that were coming to help us or to give us their old clothes or whatever it was.
Speaker 1:And so a few years after that so after second grade, moving into fourth grade, so we moved to Florida, and when she got to fourth grade, she still had this love for everything, and so we were driving down the street and there was this land that was being cleared and she was so upset like she started sobbing. I was like why are you upset about this land? And she said, well, like she started sobbing. I was like why are you upset about this land? And she said well, I'm so mad. They're getting ready to build this movie theater on this land but in doing so they're going to destroy this habitat where all these birds live. And in Florida there's this bird that lives only in Florida, called a scrub jay, that nests on the ground. So it was going to displace all of these birds. So I said to her well, what are you going to do about it? And we decided that she was going to go to the city hall and tell the mayor that she thought it was a bad idea for them to tear down these trees to build this movie theater. And she made a presentation and she went and they thought, oh, how adorable. But little did they know what was behind Olivia's tenacity to move forward. Because she loves everything, she turned that into an opportunity to create her own organization called Save the Earth Projects.
Speaker 1:If any of you are listening on the call and you know me and have ever donated a pair of shoes through Leave a Good Footprint. It's the result of what happened when Olivia got upset about birds when she was in the fourth grade, all because of wanting to do something that made a difference. And she had that tenacity and resilience because of what her will was and what her thought was about something that happened when she was in the second grade. So if you were a part of that, we've now collected over 110,000 pairs of shoes that have been sent around the world, and so when you think about the things that you get to do, the book says this quote that you can hate things in life. Bitterness can be your burden, but in this case, it was telling a story about a boxer who basically just had some obstacles. This book is about obstacles, but he said bitterness was their burden, but Johnson the boxer refused to pick it up. You can live your life as well as me. Why did this happen to me? Instead of thinking about why did this happen, and what can happen now through me can be the way you might be able to have something even remotely close to what my child has done.
Speaker 1:She's gone on.
Speaker 1:You know I'm the bragger because I'm the mom, but Olivia will never talk about herself.
Speaker 1:She hates talking about her accolades, but she's gone on to win awards by two living presidents of the United States.
Speaker 1:She has more trophies collecting dust than I can tell you, and when you ask her about what's important to her, it's never about that. It's always about the things that she was able to do to help other people and the stories of the people that have shared with her about how their lives have changed all because of this. And now, by the way, she also doesn't take any credit for any of the shoes that are collected. She gives all the credit to the people that collected the shoes and she looks at herself as sort of like just this vessel or this transference of being able to help other people make a big difference, one step at a time. And so, for me, this chapter about loving everything that happens is all about my daughter, and it's about how life goes on and you can't be sad and you can't stay stuck. You take the things that happen to you or around you, whether it's your job or whether it's something personally, and you can either do something about it or not, but it's a choice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's definitely it. And, and like you said, this is that Amor Fati, which is the love of fate, and they say like this is not merely bearing what is necessary, but loving it. Right, it's not, it's that I get to do this right, like, how lucky am I. And I think this is where the practice of gratitude, especially like meditating on gratitude, like there's so much research, so much research that that is such a huge indicator in, like, your happiness in life and the things that you do, but it really is like sitting in that gracious space of like I get to do this. Like Olivia, I get to be the vessel that moves all of these people to action, to help us you know, donating these shoes to make these things happen. Right, I get to be the person who does that and so, no matter what happens, it is not a burden to bear. And, like you said, like I love this boxer right, Like it is, and it's this joy that I get the experience of this, that I get to do it right. Like other people may decide to be bitter, but like I don't have to pick that up right, like I get to choose that bitterness is something I never pick up right. And like I think, like for me, like that's something that I always am very conscious of, like I do not pick up bitterness, I do not pick up those things, they're not mine, I don't care about them. Like right, like if you want to be bitter, you go for it, but like that is just not how I want to choose how to live. That will not ever break that inner citadel of me in what I'm trying to do and and I think that, like, I've experienced this in a little tiny way recently, right, and I thought about you losing, you know, all of your worldly possessions and that flood and things like that.
Speaker 2:But we had, um, uh, like a mice infestation, like not infestation. We had like a mouse coming to the house and, um, as we were cleaning out, um, the food that like the mouse had gotten into, because it happened in our pantry, and our pantry is weirdly shaped so it's kind of deep, so things fall in the back and you like, forget, forget that they're there, and like a whole thing. But we had a mouse. Well, as my husband was cleaning out all of the things, he found that there were these little like bugs in some of the dry goods, and so then we Googled it, we looked it up, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:Point of the story is we had to throw out every single thing in our pantry right, which is like all of it's gone. And every time I open our pantry now this is probably a month ago, at this point our pantry is organized, it's clean. I know every single thing that's in there. Everything is not expired like it's. It's all usable if there's no waste in any of it. I've been trying to get really creative and not trying to like overbuy, to like replenish. You know, like I had a grandmother who grew up during the like Great Depression and she had like way too much stuff in her house all the time, right, and so like there's this little spark of joy every time I open our pantry, which is the most mundane thing you can kind of do right Of like, oh, let's look at something and I just like there's this little bit of happiness injection in it and this love of this weird situation that happened, because now things are easy, now there's no wasted, like I've gotten creative with stuff.
Speaker 2:I used, like chachi pt, to like make a recipe of just stuff that I had. I I was like, well, I have these things, I think it's enough to make something. And I was like, sure enough, sure was, and there was no waste. No like, oh, these bits that I would have thrown away or whatever. And it's like this whole new kind of outlook that makes me really happy. And it's like it's this little bit of experiencing this, like it just accept fate for what it is. I love that. It kind of happened, even though I could have been really bitter and mad about having to throw everything out and just all the stuff that goes along with that, but I don't know kind of ended up being a good thing.
Speaker 1:So you kind of had your own experience with life-changing magic of tidying up. So it comes back to that book again.
Speaker 2:Absolutely and it does. One day we're going to do the book right. One day we're going to do the book right.
Speaker 1:One day.
Speaker 1:I'm excited to do that book because I agree with you Like I love going to. When you look at magazines or you go to Lowe's or Home Depot and you see how the inside of a refrigerator looks, I always think to myself they must eat out every day, but my fridge looks like, and I don't think my pantry looks as good as yours does now, and so it's sort of motivating. But here's what's interesting about the way the chapter phrases it is that you didn't just tolerate adversity. It's more than that. It's about taking that thing that happened and finding some sort of joy in it and isn't always happiness. So it's obviously that wasn't a happy occurrence that happened to you, but what was the opportunity and the benefit that lie in that adversity that you had now granted? I'm hoping that you got rid of the mouse so that he doesn't want to come back and visit all good, yep, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I love that there's this line in this book, towards the end of this chapter, that says, like, don't waste a second, looking back at your expectations, right, like I didn't expect to have to clean everything out, like you didn't expect to lose everything, you know that. But looking back at that will suck so much joy out of your life. But he says and said face forward and face it with a smug little grin, and I love that, like, I love that. Like, can you just like envision like I'm facing adversity, I'm facing this obstacle, I'm facing this thing, and I turn, and I look at it with this little knowing grin on my face of, like I got this, like I'm going to turn you into something real good, I'm going to love this by the end of it. Right, I'm going to be thankful, I'm going to be grateful for this by the end of it.
Speaker 2:And I don't think that's delusional. I don't think that that's like, oh, I'm trying to be overly optimistic or overly positive or trying to do whatever. I think it's like it's a deep thing, it's a very deep like at my core, right, we're in will, at the very essence of my heart and my soul. I'm gonna have a smug little grin about this. I just there's something about that.
Speaker 1:It just feels like poetic, like you got that little mouse, you got him and, um well, it reminds me. So at disney world there's this ride ratatouille, which is based off of the pixar cartoon ratatouille, and it's kind of like this idea of what you're talking about, where you go on this ride and the mouse is running through the kitchen. If you've never seen the movie, it's super cute and there's lots of good leadership lessons in the movie too. But you're in the ride, you're going on this journey that the mouse is trying to avert all these obstacles and it ends up being fun. Like people are laughing, they're having fun, they want to ride again and stand in the line for an hour, and and so it's. It's important to think about the fact that this isn't all happiness and and he ends this chapter in an important way before we go to the next one which is good doesn't always outweigh the bad, it's not always going to be fun, you're not always going to have the best pantry, you're not always going to be able to transform somebody else's life based on your own adversity, and it doesn't always come free and without cost. But it says there is always some good, even if only barely perceptible at first, contained within the bad, and we can find it and be cheerful because of it.
Speaker 1:And I wrote underneath that about what's on your bookshelf Because, sam, I already loved you from the minute I met you. I tell you that all the time. I think we talked about it in an episode a few years ago. I knew from the minute I met you that I not only wanted to work with you, but I just wanted to know you. But what I didn't know then is that it would take an adverse situation of us going through an obstacle at the same time, on a parallel road that would bring us to be able to come together and bring the show about. And so, even if it wasn't perceptible at first, about us going through a challenging time, we are able to find the good in it and in a way that has truly been transformational. I can read these books. I think we talked about this off mic a few weeks ago. You could read any book by yourself, but how much better it is to read it with my friend, yeah absolutely Absolutely.
Speaker 2:That's what I said. I would do this even if we weren't doing the podcast and we weren't recording it. It helps us because, like, I relearn as we go back and listen and all that sort of good stuff and as I talk about this stuff with other people in my life. But, yeah, this, like it's this little seed that's grown into something so much bigger and I think, like that quote at the end of that chapter, I love that. Right, it's like just that little nugget there's, there's that sliver of something great here potentially, and like, if you feed it, it can really grow into something great. And I think that that's. That's what this feels like to me. And perseverance is where this book has next next.
Speaker 2:But I think about we have persevered. I was just telling somebody about this podcast the other day and yesterday actually, and um, I was saying, yeah, we've been doing this podcast for like two years. We've got a hundred and some episodes and they're like a hundred. You've done a hundred and some episodes. I was like, yeah, we just kept doing it, like just just consistency and moving forward. And you know, persistence is like it's, I think, close with consistency, but it's like persevering beyond the obstacles. Right, it's like, and he says like it's persistence, everything directed at one problem until it breaks. And that's what perseverance like to me. I love that definition of like. What perseverance really is is like you. Just you're persistent, you just keep chipping away at it until it breaks, until you can move through it.
Speaker 1:So it's interesting because he breaks down the word like the etymology sort of, I guess. But what I found interesting was that he really made me think about the word differently. So he says if persistence is attempting to solve some difficult problem with dogged determination and hammering until the break occurs, then plenty of people can be said to be persistent Like they. Just they want to go after something right. But then he says but perseverance is something larger, it comes from the same root or the same. What do we call it? The beginning part of the word, right? Yeah, he says it's the long game, which reminds me of your, one of your favorite authors, simon Sinek, and the and the the infinite game.
Speaker 1:The infinite game, it's the long game. It's about what happens not just in round, round one, but in round two and every round after, and then the fight after that, and the fight after that until the end. Because whatever that obstacle is is just the first one, or maybe it's not even the first one, it's just the next one. And he goes on to say that life is not just one obstacle, it's about many obstacles. And so what's required of us is this perseverance, to just keep moving forward. And if you, if you go through the happiness year that we had. It's about how do you move forward in life with happiness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he says that persistence is an action right, which is actually came out of and perseverance is a matter of will right. It's that I have his like calls it staying power here, right, like I'm gonna last the whole time. Like as we're recording this, we're in like hockey playoff season and I was just listening to an interview yesterday with someone who's like a three-time Stanley Cup champion and he was saying that like it's the team that's gonna outlast the other team that wins this right.
Speaker 2:You've gotta be bigger, stronger, you've gotta be the one that, in game seven of the series, is still persevering, right, it's still out there fighting and it is an internal part of that heart and soul of you that I will keep fighting and keep going in perpetuity, like you can't stop me from doing this, right.
Speaker 2:Persistence is that chipping away, chipping away, right, the like we're going to chip at it till it breaks. Perseverance is that deeper, like you're, I'm going to do it again and again and again. I'm going to do it next year and the year after and I'm gonna win seven stanley. It's that like I'm gonna win every game of all of these series until we, you know we want to, because people always say, oh, there's nothing like playoff hockey, and it's that it's because that they have to play so many series and you can go to seven games in every series of like you are fighting for your life the whole time and it's like that's perseverance at the end of the day I think that's what's the standout of successful athletes or major league level athletes and those that don't make it right or even think about how hard it is to even make it to the big leagues of whatever your sport is, but then to be the superstar of that team or have a legacy that lives beyond the years you play.
Speaker 1:Yeah, perseverance is what gets you there right. It's again that will, that will and the drive that keeps you going and keeps you moving even when things are difficult, and there's certain teams that are just good at it. And it's got me thinking about lots of different sports. Just recently, there was a player on the New York Yankees that had a terrible injury this past. Well, this episode is going to come out way past when this happened this past. Well, this episode is going to come out way past when this happened.
Speaker 1:But just recently, this player was coming around to home plate and was going to slide into home plate and he was persevering because he was against time. Right, he knew that ball was coming. He knew the catcher was going to be right there in front of him to tag him out, but he was persevering and to get to the home plate ended up sliding and somehow oh, such a horrible injury His foot broke and snapped all the way backwards Like could be, could be career ending injury. We don't know yet, but he didn't think about that when he was running. Like well, what if I break my leg? What if I get out? What if the player tags me? What if I run out of steam? He didn't think that. He thought I'm going to make it and I'm going to get this point and I'm going to do what's best for the team, even if it means that he ended up having an obstacle that could be, you know, could ruin his career.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and I think it's, um, it's that, it's the long game, right, it's that I'm I'm gonna push as I need to push and, like you said, with, like Simon Sinek's like infinite game, like, no, no, what you're going for in the end, right, like I'm gonna push in this play of this game to get to the championship this year and next year and the one after that, right, so that I have a legacy. And you know, like all of these things, like you think about this like as an in perpetuity type of you know, like part of who you are, right, it's not even action, it is that it's in your spirit, in your soul. I'm like I am someone who, like you, said that the odds of you becoming a professional athlete are practically nothing. Right, and the people who've gotten there are people like. That is one thing they absolutely all have in common is perseverance. Right, they've had to put in more hours than everybody else, right, just like that's just how the math works.
Speaker 2:You know, playing at that kind of an elite level, and I think about that in like our life, right, like in your entire life, in this infinite game. The point of the game is to stay in the game and to stay in the game, you've got to persevere through everything that happens. And you know, he says towards the end of this chapter right, like that's on you, no one else is to blame when you throw in the towel, and it's that. It's that concept of like I'm not gonna throw in the towel on just because an obstacle shows up, just because something you know it does this. It reminds me of that tommy john story in yeah, this book. Was that the other book? What book was that?
Speaker 2:in um but it reminds me of that. Right like he was like nope, we're gonna keep coming back. Right like he's the one who had like this surgery Like normally it was a career ending, you know injury and now he's like he's the person that's unnamed after, because he persevered, he's like nope, I'm not giving up right.
Speaker 1:This is my way, right, like yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like he went on and played for a decade and a half longer after this surgery and then played when they tried to cut him. Then came back. Like that perseverance that I'm going to keep going is how you get to the legacy that you want, right? The legacy, your legacy, is in what you do today and what you do now.
Speaker 1:That kind of makes me think about again. We could probably list all kinds of athletes, but I have to think about Heisman Trophy winner Tim Tebow. That guy should have been playing in, got cut from that team and just continuously persevered. But here's the thing about him that makes him different than an average athlete is attitude, and you'll see this in a couple other superstar athletes as well. That it's about their mentality, their attitude, their will, their perseverance. They're knowing that the obstacle truly is the way and life is bigger than the game, like you're in the game. But that life is bigger than the game, and so I love how ryan holiday ended this chapter.
Speaker 1:He says we can go around or under or backward. We can decide that momentum and defeat are not mutually exclusive. We can keep going even if we stopped in one particular direction, and so what that was saying to me was like you might be going straight ahead for that career or that job title or that company and things will change. The book says be prepared. Things will not always go the way that you want and things will change. But if you're prepared in the way that you can get around those obstacles, or with the right will, the right perseverance or the right attitude, then anything really is possible for you if you just keep getting back up. It's not about despair, it's about determination, and yet often the thing that stops us is ourself. And it says why would you be your own worst enemy? So next week we're going to talk about things that are beyond ourself, but this chapter ends by saying don't be your own obstacle yeah, and I think that that's it right.
Speaker 2:He says hold on and hold steady, and it's. That's exactly it right. Like don't stand in your own way, keep going, keep, keep persevering and build perseverance into the core of your being, into the core of who you are. You want to be someone who perseveres, despite anything that happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we've talked up until this point in the book sam, about people's passion and potential and moving forward and thinking right and your perceptions and your actions and the will. But next week we're going to shift to talk about all those things that make our purpose so important and why we live at this time, that we're living with who we're living with, doing the things that we're doing. So I'm really, really looking forward that we only have a couple chapters left, which makes me sad because I always hate to get to the end of these books, but I'm also really excited about and looking forward to, sharing the secrets of what the next book is about as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, definitely, and I was thinking about this as I was looking towards the end of this book. I, when I got this book, I got it for this and it was so pretty and like kind of just perfect, and now it is beat to death, like it's like it has this gold leafing on the front. On my version, that's all scratched up, the spine's all messed up. I have folded pages on the top. On the bottom, I have post-it notes, I have markings and, um, my son was like why is your book all highlighted, like what it like it was, like what's wrong with your book?
Speaker 2:And I'm like this is this, is living this out loud, right, and I, just this book is like priceless, like this actual physical copy of this book is priceless to me because of you know, because of this journey, because of going through it, and so I hope that other people are living this out loud the way that we are. I hope you're reading along, I hope that you're marking up your own book, that you're, you know you're thinking about this, right, like enrich the experience for yourself, because it's like this. This is it. This is a lived physical manifestation of what you and I are doing, and I do get sad when we get to the end of a book, but I love it because my book is so lived in and lived out loud.
Speaker 1:I love how you're describing it, because that's why we also have been able to reference the other books, because we did something that was in those books that was meaningful to us at that time. And I think that what we're also finding is that the book in the chapter will have a meaning for you when it's supposed to. So you might have something that you read that you're like oh okay, well, that's interesting, but it may not be applicable until later. But if you really dive into this, the way Sam is saying like my book is the same. You can't really see it since we might not be on camera, but I have all kinds of writing and pages turned and post-it notes. I actually gave my atomic habits book to vincent because he wanted to read it and he was like can I just have my own copy because I cannot get around whatever you wrote on all these pages. But I do hope that you're getting value from it.
Speaker 1:But also take the time to truly make your own journey and then go back and listen to the episodes again if you missed something or maybe there's something that strikes you Every time these episodes come out. We've already recorded them, we've already read the book, we've already talked about the book, but I learned something new every time and I really do have to credit Pat Williams for all of that, because had he not put that in the book about coach John Wooden, I really wouldn't have really thought about drinking deeply from these good books, because really, at the beginning of our episodes and we're going to close after this but we weren't doing deep dives we were doing, you know, one book in 20 minutes and hoping people got something from it, and I felt like a commercial. I felt like I was selling books for an author instead of actually making my life change through the way that author was sharing their own experiences.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, I completely agree with you. Yeah, so there's ways to find us in all of the podcast episodes. We're not hard to find. You can Google us and probably find us. My son said he Googled me at school the other day and put the picture of me for my website as his background on his computer, which is like adorable, but also like but like, talk to us and let us know if, like, there's a way we could make this experience better for you, right, like, if you want to be in a book club with us or we want to do something that, like, takes this to a level that you would enjoy. Like, we'll hear all your ideas. I would love to talk to people about that and you know, see what ways I don't know we could do something fun to I don't know.
Speaker 1:bring this experience that you and I have to everybody. Well, that would be so awesome. I mean, we're only able to tell you how it is for us and you're only able to vicariously sort of see what it's like. But I think that's a great idea, Sam. So friends Come be with us, Come be with us, Come with us. Maybe we need to do something live and in person again. Yeah, no-transcript.